Course Catalog: Bruce Springsteen’s American Vision
At Rutgers U., students analyze the idea of America through the works of a rock icon.
For decades, Bruce Springsteen’s songs about fast cars, working-class dreamers, and loves lost and found have helped to define a quintessentially American notion of freedom and rebellion. But do the music and lyrics of “The Boss” speak to the college students of Gen Z? Louis P. Masur, a professor of American studies and history at Rutgers University at New Brunswick, thinks they do. After years of teaching a course titled “Springsteen’s American Vision,” Masur says he is as convinced as ever that the rock legend’s songs are as timeless as
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In this episode
For decades, Bruce Springsteen’s songs about fast cars, working-class dreamers, and loves lost and found have helped to define a quintessentially American notion of freedom and rebellion. But do the music and lyrics of “The Boss” speak to the college students of Gen Z? Louis P. Masur, a professor of American studies and history at Rutgers University at New Brunswick, thinks they do. After years of teaching a course titled “Springsteen’s American Vision,” Masur says he is as convinced as ever that the rock legend’s songs are as timeless as Huck Finn and as durable as a “big old Buick.”
Guest
Louis P. Masur, distinguished professor of American studies and history at Rutgers University
Related reading
- Runaway Dream: Born to Run and Bruce Springsteen’s American Vision (Louis P. Masur)
- The Boss in the Classroom (Chronicle)
Listen
Transcript
This transcript was produced using a speech recognition software. It was reviewed by production staff, but may contain errors. Please email us at collegematters@chronicle.com if you have any questions.
Jack Stripling: Hey everyone. Jack Stripling here. Today you’ll hear the next episode in our summer series on intriguing and popular college courses. Here’s our colleague, Beth McMurtrie.
Beth McMurtrie: This is College Matters from the Chronicle.
Lou Masur: To take a body of work like Born to Run, Darkness on the Edge of Town and The River, it’s this trilogy of brilliance that really is at the bedrock of Springsteen’s work, is no different for me than having the students read, you know, Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer, and Life on the Mississippi.
Beth McMurtrie: To close out our summer series on intriguing and popular college courses, we’re diving into “Springsteen’s American Vision,” a course at Rutgers University devoted to Bruce Springsteen’s legacy and modern-day relevance.
It’s easy to see the appeal of a course about “The Boss,” an American icon who helped to define the sound of a generation with hits like “Born to Run.” But how relevant is Springsteen to Gen Z? After all, this is a songwriter who grew up singing about the back streets of New Jersey and the escape promised by motorcycles and open roads. And although he has branched out in many musical directions, he gained fame reflecting the plight of the white working class.
Can Springsteen still speak to and for a nation that is far more diverse and politically complicated than when he came of age in the 1970s? To dig into that question, we’re talking with Lou Masur, a distinguished professor of American studies and history at Rutgers University.
Masur developed his Springsteen course a couple of decades ago — and is still finding new students who want to come along for the ride.
Lou Masur, welcome to College Matters.
Lou Masur: Great to be here, Beth. Thanks for having me.
Beth McMurtrie: Well, we’re excited to have you on the show and not just because we have diehard Springsteen fans at the office. Here at the Chronicle, we talk a lot about the purpose of college, what students need to learn and what they may learn about themselves in the process of going through college. So why do you want your students to learn about Bruce Springsteen?
Lou Masur: Well, it’s learning about Springsteen as a way of learning about American culture and American cultural history. In some ways, teaching a course on Springsteen is no different than teaching a course on Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War or teaching a course on 19th century American cultural history. It’s just a little jazzier and trendier and has a great deal of interest. For me, it’s both professional and personal. It starts with the personal. I first went to a Springsteen concert when I was 17 years old and I’ve been along for the ride for a long time. But as I became an American cultural historian, I realized there’s things within Springsteen’s work that are incredibly teachable. And one thing led to another, which some 20 years ago led me to devise this course called, “Springsteen’s American Vision.”
Beth McMurtrie: So in the course, you start out first by teaching about Elvis Presley and then about Bob Dylan. Why those two and how do they set the stage for understanding Springsteen?
Lou Masur: What I do is a couple of weeks on Presley, a couple of weeks on Dylan, and then the rest of the course is on Springsteen. And part of it is there’s a theme that Springsteen in part handed me. I think it was Springsteen who said, Presley freed our bodies, Dylan freed our minds. Springsteen’s working on our souls. So there’s a sort of theme of body, mind and soul. It’s a way to introduce students to Presley, who’s the Big Bang in the history of rock and roll in the 1950s. Dylan, of course, in the 1960s — and thank goodness for A Complete Unknown, because my students are now obsessed with Bob Dylan in ways that 15 years ago they were not. And then I spend the rest of the semester focusing on Springsteen’s body of work.
Beth McMurtrie: You mentioned that a lot of people or a lot of students now know about Dylan because of the movie, but I’m guessing most of your students didn’t grow up listening to Springsteen. Maybe their parents did.
Lou Masur: Exactly.
Beth McMurtrie: How does that shape how you teach his music?
Lou Masur: It’s a great question. And you’re absolutely right. I mean, even though I teach at Rutgers, which is in New Jersey, and so there’s a huge sort of Springsteen contingent, most of them, not all of them, most of them, to the extent that they know Springsteen, know it from, as you suggested, from their parents. But they come to it wanting to learn more, wanting to understand more, and they come to it with the same degree of interest they would come to any topic that they don’t know a lot about, but want to learn something. This just sounds a lot more appealing in some ways to them.
Music is critical to their lives and that’s the hook that gets students to really want to sort of take the course. And my favorite assignment is the assignment that they have the first week of class is I ask them all to write 500 words on the song that changed their life or the song that defined their life or the song that is the soundtrack of their life. It’s my favorite assignment in 40 years of teaching. Pick any song and write about it.
Now, part of what I’m doing there, Beth, is I want them to start to figure out how do you write about music? How do you write about a song? You know, they’ve maybe had experience unpacking written texts. They’ve had perhaps some experience unpacking photographic visuals, but how do you write about music? And so that is a way to sort of warm them up to the task but it also allows me to learn from them. I keep a list, I sit there with Spotify, and I’m introduced to all kinds of stuff, some of which I’m familiar with, some of which I’m not, and that becomes the sort of launching pad for the course.
Beth McMurtrie: I’m curious, are there particular songs that come up again for them in terms of like the songs that resonate and mean a lot to them?
Lou Masur: It’s amazing; it’s all over the spectrum. I mean, for many of them, it’s songs that connect them to their parents and to their grandparents. So I’ll get Beatles songs and you’ll get Beach Boys and Rolling Stones songs. For a lot of them, it’s the music that they’re interested in now. It’s more hip hop, it’s rap, it’s electronic dance music. It really cuts kind of across the spectrum. And then needless to say, in any given semester, I have a few hardcore Springsteen fans who insist on writing about a Springsteen song. So it’s a lot of fun and it sort of preps them for the work that is ahead.
Beth McMurtrie: In your course description, you quote Springsteen saying, “I have spent my life judging the distance between American reality and the American dream.” And we’re at this moment now when we’re really examining as a country what it means to be American and perhaps even revising what it means to be American. So I’m wondering, is this a particularly good time to teach about Bruce Springsteen?
Lou Masur: I think so. I’m in the American Studies Department as well as the History Department. The course is offered from American Studies and this multidisciplinary approach to thinking hard about America. That’s where this fits in. I mean, any moment is a good time to be asking these kinds of questions and talking about them. The course carries additional valence in the fact that Springsteen is very much among us now and involved, and indeed this summer quite articulate about what’s going on in America. But for me, I want them to understand the work, to interpret the work and to analyze it over the course of time. So it’s not really about Springsteen today or what he’s saying or his performances. It’s the earlier work. It’s really mostly Springsteen in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and the sort of culminating work is his response to 9/11, his album, The Rising.
Beth McMurtrie: Is there a reason you chose to focus on that era or eras of Springsteen? I mean, he’s prolific, obviously, so you probably couldn’t cover his entire career. But I’m wondering why you focus on the early- to mid-career stuff.
Lou Masur: I mean, the moment that first made Springsteen Springsteen is about to have its 50th anniversary, and that’s Born to Run, which came out in 1975. That’s the moment where Springsteen is hailed as saving rock and roll. He’s on the cover of Time and Newsweek. He becomes for the first time a sort of celebrity. Ten years later with Born in the USA, he becomes a global phenomenon. And then of course, the story continues from there. I mean, it’s an amazing career.
To take a body of work like Born to Run, Darkness on the Edge of Town and The River, it’s this trilogy of brilliance that really is at the bedrock of Springsteen’s work, is no different for me than having the students read, you know, Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer, and Life on the Mississippi. Or having students take three canonical texts from the Founding Fathers. I want them to immerse themselves in it, to develop the themes, to write about those themes, to talk about change over time. They’re getting a grounding, a deep grounding in Springsteen. They’re also at each point getting a grounding in the times in which Springsteen is working. The 1970s for Born to Run, the 1980s for The River, Nebraska, Born in the USA, et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.
Beth McMurtrie: You know, one question I have about rock is whether students still find rock relevant. And I ask this because I grew up on Bruce Springsteen. I was obsessed with him in high school and college. And to me, rock and roll is the music of young people. It’s the music of rebellion. But when I talk to my son, who’s just a year out of college, he says that rock doesn’t have that same resonance with today’s students. He likes rock music, but he says he likes it in the way he likes watching old movies. And that is fascinating to me that young people maybe no longer identify with rock the way you or I did. Does that come up in your class discussions with your students?
Lou Masur: Sure, but I think rock is many genres, and in some ways you and I are talking about classic rock and that’s part of what Presley and Dylan and early Springsteen is. But that’s not to say that alt-rock or progressive rock or any of the other sub genres that have emerged, you know, punk, grunge, I mean one could go on and on and on about the begets, they all have elements of rock in them. Rock bleeds into pop, but it also bleeds into other forms of music. But of course, yes, hip-hop, rap, there are other genres that speak more directly to students today. I don’t think rock is “dead.” I mean, classic rock is a phenomenon, but there are groups like The Killers. I don’t know if you’re familiar with them, but my students love The Killers. Or Arcade Fire or any of a number of groups that are touring that are certainly working within the rock genre. So in that sense, like anything, rock changes over time. I mean, the sound of Elvis Presley is not the sound of Bruce Springsteen, but part of what Springsteen did was he reached back into the 1950s in order to move the sound of rock and roll forward in the 1970s and the 1980s. It’s no different than what some artists are doing today, reaching back to Springsteen, who has become the sort of fountainhead for their work and then now developing and playing off of those sounds and those themes in the music that they’re producing today.
Beth McMurtrie: I was curious, you know, on the surface this course could come across to a student like it’s one of those easy courses students are always looking for to round out their schedule. You know, the rocks for jocks kind of course. Do you get students who think they’re going to just coast by listening to a few albums and writing a couple of papers?
Lou Masur: So this is where they encounter sticker shock, and you’re absolutely right. So my evaluations go something like this: Masur teaches a great course, he’s amazing, it’s fun, it’s interesting, it’s great. And then they’ll get their grade and they’ll say, my God, that guy is really nasty and unbearable. I mean, in some ways, I’ve been very careful to make this even harder than some of my other courses, even more demanding, because I want to avoid that, you know it’s an easy course to just pass through. I mean, there are general problems now, as my colleagues will tell you and as you know about in the age of AI and getting kids to read and getting them to do the work. But that’s not peculiar to the Springsteen class.
Beth McMurtrie: What are some of the positive things they say in the evaluation about what they learned from your course?
Lou Masur: Well, they certainly learn a deeper appreciation of both Springsteen, of his music and his place in American culture as a prominent iconic figure. What I’m really pleased with is they say that they can’t listen to music the same way again. They develop those analytical skills to think about the lyrics and the place of the lyrics in the song. Now I’m not a professional musician and they don’t have to know the difference between major chords and minor chords and all the musical things that are going on, although I introduced them to that through some of the readings that they do. But it means that they’re listening more closely and they’re thinking harder about how it is the songs that move them, you know, how do they do it? Why do they do it?
One of my favorite things is I have access to lots of outtakes, studio outtakes, for Springsteen as well as for Dylan and other artists and so we’ll listen to those and not just understand the finished product, but how do you get to the finished product? That’s a process that teaches them something really important. The art of writing is rewriting, and the art of writing songs and recording songs is rewriting and re-recording them. So that stuff kind of comes together, and I think at the end of the semester they come away with a much deeper appreciation of the creative process and their own skills develop in terms of how to appreciate, evaluate, and interpret those bodies of work.
Beth McMurtrie: Stick around. We’ll be back in a minute.
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Beth McMurtrie: Lou, we’ve been talking about how you want students to analyze Bruce Springsteen’s songs, just as they might analyze a great work of literature. You’re challenging them to think critically about the music and the lyrics. But I’m curious about how much you focus in your course on Bruce Springsteen as a person and an artist. I think I noticed in your syllabus that you ask them to read Springsteen’s own writing on himself, and then some interviews. So, how much do you want students to think about Springsteen’s life or his public persona as a way of understanding his work?
Lou Masur: It’s a great question and one of the points I make to my students is trust the art, not the artist. I mean, Springsteen himself has said that. He’s so present and he’s such a famous public figure, it’s easy to confuse his work with who he is as a person. But that would be a mistake. I want them to study the work on its own terms. At the same time, one of the great things to do as a historian is think about how people revise their stories over time. His autobiography is masterful, it really is. It stands as a work of literature. In the genre of rock autobiographies, of which there are now hundreds, his of course is nearly at the top. But I also give students interviews he conducted 30, 40, 50 years ago. I co-edited a volume with Chris Phillips called Talk About a Dream, these interviews from earlier on. So for my students to read an interview from 1975, 1976 about Born to Run, and then read what he has to say 10 years ago, or whenever it was that his autobiography came out, allows them to sort of triangulate, if you will, on the truth. How is he changing his story about the work? And then I want them to engage the work on their own terms and think about how these texts aren’t these stable things that only exist at one moment. They grow and they change over time.
Beth McMurtrie: Springsteen himself has obviously grown and changed a lot as an artist, but I’ve sort of been thinking about the fact that at least in his earlier songs, a lot of them reflect the experiences of white working class men. And I wonder if students today who come from much more diverse backgrounds with parents who may have been born elsewhere can relate to his songwriting and the imagery in his songs.
Lou Masur: What they relate to, all of them, is the sense of struggle, particularly in the early work. I mean, this is the part that goes back to his ongoing attempt to think about the distance between American reality and American dream. These are songs about work. These are songs about faith and about religion. These are songs about struggles with parents. These are songs about seeking to find love, but also losing love. Yes, there are issues with respect to, for example, his portrayal of women, but that becomes something that we could spend a lot of time working on. Are these songs misogynistic? What does it mean to sort of allude to the women in his songs in this particular way? There are themes embedded in all of the work that the students can connect to, regardless of their not being necessarily white males of a certain age from a certain place. You know, we mentioned the film about Dylan that got a lot of people interested in Dylan. Well, a film about Springsteen that will be coming out this fall based on Nebraska, which is going to get that many more people sort of suddenly interested in his work from the ‘70s and the ‘80s. It’s this ongoing dialogue with his work, with our culture, with the time in which it’s done, but also the way in which the work resonates today that I think in part makes the course so interesting.
Beth McMurtrie: Are there things you’ve noticed that resonate differently with Gen Z students than with millennial students? I mean, you’ve been teaching this course for what, about 20 years now?
Lou Masur: That’s correct. I don’t even know, to be honest with you, what the different letters signify, though I read about it all the time. I’m happy being a baby boomer.
Beth McMurtrie: Fair enough.
Lou Masur: You know, so there’s a certain level at which you reach a certain age, the students, in terms of their general approach to things, remain somewhat stable. You know, the changes for me, I alluded to before are with AI, with changes in the ways in which people read, with the effects of the cell phone.They like things shorter. They like things the way in which they receive their information in the worlds, I suppose, of texting and social media. So that has been a challenge.
Beth McMurtrie: During Springsteen’s recent Land of Hope and Dreams tour when he performed in Manchester, England, he talked about the righteous power of art in dangerous times. And he got huge cheers for saying this. This is a direct quote, “My home, the America I love, the America I’ve written about that has been a beacon of hope and liberty for 250 years is currently in the hands of a corrupt, incompetent and treasonous administration.” And then he went on to say that, “tonight we ask all who believe in democracy and the best of our American experience to rise with us, raise your voices against authoritarianism and let freedom ring.” That makes me wonder, do you talk about his politics in your class?
Lou Masur: You can’t escape talking about his politics, but there’s a difference between talking about his politics and me having to be careful not to be proselytizing along with him about his politics. My politics are fairly evident to my students, but I teach in central New Jersey. I have a lot of students who are working-class Republicans. And what I want to do is complicate the story for all of them. You know, one of the great moments in Springsteen’s history is when Ronald Reagan stood up and misinterpreted “Born in the USA” as a patriotic song celebrating the youth of America. And Springsteen has always faced this problem. What has it meant to have conservative white working class fans who, I mean, did they not understand the songs? Or what is going on in terms of how they reacted to the music that was coming out? It’s confusing, right? Culture is confusing and the meaning of music is confusing. So yeah, my students understand Springsteen’s politics, but it goes back to what we just talked about before, trust the art, not the artist. So I’m less interested in them knowing what his politics are than in them trying to understand the politics of the music, the politics behind the songs.
Beth McMurtrie: Let’s talk a little bit about teaching style. You’ve written about how you bring your passions to your teaching. In a piece you wrote for us back in 2005, and about how you came up with the idea for this course. You wrote that I was scampering up and down the aisle, singing, yelling, and performing before 50 students, and then I was dancing. And I think about how many students these days seem so disaffected by school and disinterested in being there, except maybe to get the grades, get the degree. You talked about AI. And I was wondering if this is the kind of passion more colleges need to infuse into the classroom. I mean maybe not dancing, but showing the love of your subject?
Lou Masur: Yeah, I think passion is critical, but you know, there are reams and reams of literature on the extent to which you can teach people how to teach and I don’t know the answers to that. What I know is I have a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of passion for what I’m teaching, whether I’m teaching Thomas Jefferson or Frederick Douglass or Bruce Springsteen. And I think finding ways to bring that to the students is important. I mean, not everyone is a performer and admittedly I have a certain element of that in my teaching style in terms of just being animated and being enthusiastic and trying to get them to express themselves. There’s nothing worse than just sitting back in a classroom, hearing a professor drone on for X amount of time. I will bring up something, I will talk about something, I will go on a sort of tangent, but then I wanna hear from them, and they know that I wanna hear from them. And there are times where I just want them to talk to each other, and part of the art of teaching is knowing when to step back, encourage them to have a conversation and then I will sort of find times to step in. For Springsteen, it’s easier than it is for certain other topics because as I said to you at the beginning, you know, he’s the sort of defining artist of my life. I was 18 years old when Born to Run came out and has served me as a good companion for 50 years.
Beth McMurtrie: So you’re a bonafide Springsteen expert, sorry. You’re a bonafide Springsteen expert, obviously, but I’m curious to hear about what your students have taught you about this artist that you know so well. I’m putting you on the spot a bit, but do you remember a particular moment when a student illuminated something for you about Springsteen or one of his songs?
Lou Masur: For me, those moments come when I have musicians, particularly guitarists in the classroom, because they can illuminate those musical dimensions that I said earlier that I have some vague knowledge of but not in the depth and the detail that I would like. And that’s eye-opening and it’s illuminating because songs are not poems. If they were just poems we would just have the lyrics and we wouldn’t listen to the music. So understanding what it is that Springsteen and the band, what they’re doing musically, really sheds light on the songs. You know, changes from major to minor chords, bending up to majors, certain ideas that come in and go out. And this is where having outtakes helps tremendously. One of Springsteen’s most famous songs is “Thunder Road,” which opens up Born to Run. Well, there’s a studio outtake, an acoustic version of it, in which he is essentially singing the exact same lyrics, but musically, you couldn’t have two more different songs. The song on the record is a song, a dreamy song of liberation and escape and running away. The outtake is dark. It’s almost a dirge. Same lyrics, two different songs. I mean, that’s where the students in my class who have more experience as musicians can really help me and the other students in the class to better understand what’s going on.
Beth McMurtrie: So you mentioned a new movie is coming out about Springsteen, and we’re also hearing a ton of new material from him. Recently he released Tracks II: The Lost Albums, a big release of archival material. Is this reshaping your view of him at all?
Lou Masur: No, not really. He has a good sense, for the most part, of what music he wants to release when. What the new release does is it fills in the ‘90s, which people have often seen as a kind of lost decade for Springsteen, when he breaks up with the band and he issues two albums, Lucky Town and Human Touch, and then sort of goes off and does some other things before the band reunites. It’s fascinating for something that most fans of Springsteen already knew. His range is just incredible, and his willingness to experiment with different styles and different sounds. You know, the other element for Springsteen is he’s one of the greatest, if not the greatest, live performers ever. And anyone who’s been to a Springsteen show, talks about that phenomenon of the experience, the almost church-like experience of being at a Springsteen show that would go on for three hours or more than that. And what’s amazing, of course, is some of my students got to go see him now. In part, directly as a result of taking the class, they got interested. The most amazing thing, you tell me what I’ve learned from my students, here’s jealousy: I have a student — I just taught the class this past semester — who went to Milan to see one of the last shows in Europe of the Land of Hope and Dream tour. I haven’t seen Springsteen in Europe, but my student somehow managed to get over there and do it. He wrote me this long email from it. And that’s the best part of teaching, Beth, right? You create a conversation with your students. And if you’re lucky, it’s a conversation that continues outside of the classroom. It’s a conversation that sometimes continues for years afterwards. It’s not just a course that you take once and you get a grade and then you forget half the material and you move on. It’s something that you internalize that hopefully can carry with you for the rest of your life.
Beth McMurtrie: That’s wonderful. This has been such a great conversation. I have two final questions. The first is, do you have any songs in your playlist right now that your students turned you on to?
Lou Masur: It’s not necessarily things that I didn’t already know about, but they got me to sort of look at them again. Again, these are more sort of ‘90s bands than anything recent. The Counting Crows, who are touring, I have students who like them. More recent stuff, some Beyoncé, some Kendrick Lamar. You know, I’m not a huge Taylor Swift fan, but I’ve got Swifties in the class, and so they’ve at least exposed me to some of that.
Beth McMurtrie: We’ll have to see if Jeremy Allen White can do for Springsteen with what Timothée Chalamet did for Bob Dylan.
Lou Masur: Yeah, I have a feeling he will. You know, I don’t know if you saw the trailer, but he evokes Springsteen pretty well. And, you know, for me, again, these things are difficult, because as a historian, I know the facts, if you will, you know, what actually happened. And these are, these are works of art. They’re not documentaries. So while I enjoyed A Complete Unknown, you know, I’m sort of squirming at the things that they changed in one way or another. And I’m sure that that’s going to happen as well with the Springsteen film, but that’s all fine.
Beth McMurtrie: I can’t let you go without asking you what are your favorite, your top five Springsteen songs?
Lou Masur: The ringtone on my phone is “Born to Run.” Every book I’ve ever written, I’ve used the lines, “Love is wild, love is real” to my wife. It is, as I said, the defining sort of song and album. I wrote a book about the album that came out in 2009 called Runaway Dream. I’m sort of stuck, if you will, in the Born to Run, Darkness, River, Nebraska universe. And so I could pretty much, you know, on any given day pick five songs off of there. But then, you know, his canon is so extensive and it is so deep and there are these gems sprinkled all over the place. The last song on Tunnel of Love is called “Valentine’s Day.” Go listen to that song. It’s just amazing. You know, I’ve seen Bruce in concert many, many, many times. And that’s the one song I’ve never heard him perform live. I sort of think of being one of those characters who goes into the pit and holds up a sign, you know, over and over and over again. You know, he continues to inspire me, continues to be the sort of soundtrack of my life. And if I can help make it a part of my students’ lives, then I feel like I’ve accomplished something.
Beth McMurtrie: Thank you so much. This has been a really fun conversation. Thanks, Lou. Thanks for joining us on College Matters.
Lou Masur: Thanks for having me, Beth. I’ve enjoyed it.
Jack Stripling: Jack Stripling here. A quick note on Beth’s conversation with Lou Masur. During our fact-checking process, Lou amended one of his answers. He said he was actually 16, not 17, in June of 1973 when he first saw Bruce Springsteen in concert. We thought you should know that.
This is the final episode of our summer series, so you won’t see new episodes in our feed for a few weeks. But we’ll be back soon with Season 3 of College Matters. Until then, thanks so much for listening.
College Matters from The Chronicle is a production of the Chronicle of Higher Education, the nation’s leading independent newsroom covering colleges. If you like the show, please leave us a review or invite a friend to listen and remember to subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast, so that you never miss an episode. You can find an archive of every episode. All of our show notes and much more at chronicle.com/collegematters. This episode was produced by Corinne Ruff who provided audio editing and engineering. Our Chronicle producer is Fernanda Zamudio-Suarez. Our podcast artwork is by Catrell Thomas. Special thanks to our colleagues, Brock Read, Sarah Brown, Carmen Mendoza, Ron Coddington, Joshua Hatch, and all of the people at The Chronicle who make this show possible.
